召耀世访谈录：非缅民族的基本立场

    2018-10-23 

   召耀世访谈录：非缅民族的基本立场 掸邦复兴委员会/南掸邦军主席召耀世10月20日在仰光接受《缅甸时报》独家采访，说明对和平进程前景的看法。

访谈录全译如下：

关于和谈前景 您对刚结束的内比都峰会作何评价？

召耀世：我认为不是很好。敏昂莱总司令讲完话便离席，我觉得这不像是个双边会议，倒像命令，“按我说的做”。

单独会见昂山素季时讨论了些什么？

召耀世：会见只为表示相互友谊和建立信任，我们没有讨论政治问题。

总司令在讲话中警告不得滥用NCA，又说南掸邦军越界扩张。你对此如何回应？

召耀世：我认为他这是文不对题。掸邦军活动自限于掸邦，我们不去缅甸的其他地区，我们没去克伦尼邦（博主：近日缅军与克伦尼民族进步党发生武装冲突），也没去克钦邦。执行签订了NCA，我们就同意只在自己的地区活动。

非缅民族与缅甸政府谈判全国停火协议的终极目标是建设合众联邦。当前和平进程的方向似乎是朝向修改宪法。这符合你们的方针吗？

召耀世：缅甸政府仅仅打开了变成民主国家的门。国务资政是关键政治人物。她想改革行政分支；她和非缅民族一样想要修改宪法。

除非2008年宪法得到修改，否则就不可能有充分的民主。缅军至今掌控着国会20%的议席。缅军仍然干政。所以国务资政不能实施其所有计划。

非缅民族一直在讨论修改2008年宪法后对国家进行改革。如果缅军执着于对2008年宪法的片面坚持，那么会是困难的。人们已经在质疑缅军是否真的追求和平。值得怀疑的是为什么他们要讨论NCA没有提到的方面。

是否有可能经由NCA修改宪法？这会是浪费时间吗？南掸邦军怎么看？

召耀世：修改法律按程序必须通过国会。我们不在国会。我们不是立法者。所以NCA签约组织、缅甸政府、缅军和政党要在国会之外一起讨论。国会将依据这些讨论批准为联邦协议。这就是NCA的塑造和平作用，它也是修改2008年宪法的一条路径。

当前的谈判没有取得进步。总司令在其讲话中说必须在2010年完成任务，我看有两点要讨论。如果谈判不能取得进步，NCA就可能失效。我们就可能不能再走NCA路线。和平不能强加。我们也许要重返战场。

关于不脱离联邦的条款 不脱离联邦的问题是什么？

召耀世：在塑造和平的进程中，一切都需依 据NCA（全国停火协议）进行统一和落实。按照NCA的共识，必须建立民主合众联邦。“不脱离”既没有包含在NCA里，又不与合众联邦制相容。合众联邦制是一种确保无人愿意脱离联邦的原则。不脱离无需写在纸上。这与行政相关。如果行政分支不公正，那么即使规定不得脱离联邦，人们也照样要脱离。我们作为一个民族从掸邦来到这里会谈，不是为了脱离联邦。

讨论不脱离这个话题，便有人质疑我们是否一直想脱离。事实上，这不可能由某个个人决定。继续这样就会影响起草合众联邦协议。如果缅军坚持讨论不脱离话题，那就难以向前进展。

不脱离问题为何如此敏感？

召耀世：这个词关系政治，是个历史问题。根据基于彬龙协议的1947年宪法，掸邦有权在10年后脱离。在当今的政治形势下，我们没有提出1947年彬龙协议的主动权，只求讨论如何合作和更好地共存。如果要讨论不脱离，我们就需回到1947年签订的协议。那样，政治问题将更加复杂。

无需强调不脱离问题。事情取决于统治者如何领导与治理国家。如果既平等又公正，就不会有人脱离；但若没有公正，即使我们签下10个不脱离的协议也照样要脱离。

你有办法克服当前的困境吗？

召耀世：没必要把不脱离当成讨论的议题。如果他们坚持讨论，那就必须让公众参与。我们有权召集公投吗？允许我们这样做吗？单单南掸邦军是不能对不脱离之事作决定的。

关于单一军队 在最近这次峰会上，非缅民族组织同意缅甸拥有一支单一的军队。你能对此进行说明吗？

召耀世：民族武装组织之间有不同的立场和观点。就掸邦而言，我们有彬龙协议，但有些民族则没有参加。所以，各族的局面有差别。我们凝聚在一起，但不是以民族为依据。

南掸邦军同意单一军队吗？

召耀世：NCA签约组织的参与者所同意的不是那样。从普遍信任和国际实践的观点说，确实必须拥有一支单一军队。但是，我们必须谈论如何建立一支合众联邦军。

看总司令对单一军队问题的说法，他似乎不接受非缅民族按民族比例成军和轮流担任总司令的要求。如果和谈中要讨论这个问题，南掸邦军会提出什么主要观点？

召耀世：为把国家改变成为一个民主合众联邦，缅军也必须在安全领域有所改变。现在的缅军是在政变后取得权力的。它必须改变成为一支公众支持的政府军和一支受民选政府领导的军队。非缅民族有必要讨论如何确保各邦的安全，如何保护各邦。

DDR（解除武装、解散队伍、整编重建）之事不能单方面决定。必须由多方来作决定。关于整编重建，那些部分需要整编重建？把非缅族人安排在什么位置？我们必须讨论。整编重建不能是“投降与听从我们”。

关于NCA 你后悔签订NCA吗？

召耀世：感谢登盛政府为和平进程铺路，我们也以此为傲。在登盛任期内，各方友好和谈，易于讨论问题。这或许是由于我们愿意同意停火。我们也理解全民盟政府。缅军占有20%的国会议席，全民盟政府无法做好和平进程。

说给人民 关于和谈与南掸邦军控制区的形势，你有什么话要向人民说？

召耀世：有三点。

任何国事都与人民相关，并由人民决定，所以人民需要研究国内的事态发展。

第二点是关于政治形势。人民需要研究所有的政党和组织。现在有很多个政党。政客们善于言谈但却不善于行动。人们必须在研究哪个政党支持和代表他们之后再投票。不珍惜自己的选票便如卖身为奴。

第三点是国家经济环境很差。是谁造成的？人们需要了解。我国的政治领导人不团结，相互关系不好。这样无助于国家发展。

能够和平到什么程度，取决于人民。不能塑造国家和平，经济、社会和管理问题便无从解决。除非领导人明智而胸怀宽广，否则他们他们，他们就不能领导国家，所以我敦劝领导人们要胸怀宽广。

    An interview with Zhao Yaoshi: the basic stof the non-Burmese nation

   On 20 October, the Chairman of the Shan State Rehabilitation Council / Shan State Army South, SSA, gave an exclusive interview to the Myanmar Times in Yangon to present his views on the prospects for the peace process. On the prospects of the peace talks how do you comment on the newly concluded Naypyidaw summit? Zhao Yaoshi: I don't think it is very good. The Commander-in-Chief of Min-Leon left after his speech. I felt that this was not a bilateral meeting, but rather an order, "do as I say." What was discussed in the meeting with Aung San Suu Kyi alone? Zaoyao: the meeting was only to show mutual friendship build trust, we did not discuss political issues. In his speech, the Commander-in-Chief warned against abuse of NCA, adding that the Shan State Army in South had expanded across the border. How do you respond to this? Zhao Yaoshi: I think it is a wrong question. SSA activities have been limited to Shan State, we do not go to other parts of Myanmar, we did not go to Kayin State (Bo: recent armed clashes between the Tatmadaw the Karenni National Progressive Party), nor did we go to Kachin State. By signing the NCA, we agreed to operate only in our own area. The ultimate goal of a national ceasefire agreement between the non-Burmese people the Burmese government is to build a United Union. The current peace process seems to be moving towards constitutional change. Is this in line with your approach? Zaoyao: the Burmese government has only opened the door to becoming a democracy. The state minister is the key political figure. She wants to reform the executive branch; she wants to change the constitution like the non-Burmese. Unless the 2008 Constitution is amended, there will be no full democracy. The Tatmadaw still controls 20% of the seats in Congress. The Tatmadaw is still in politics. As a result, the Minister of State cannot carry out all his plans. The non-Burmese have been discussing reforms to the country following changes to the 2008 Constitution. It would be difficult if the Tatmadaw clung to its one-sided insistence on the 2008 constitution. People are already questioning whether the Tatmadaw really wants peace. It is doubtful why they are discussing areas not mentioned by NCA. Is it possible to amend the constitution through NCA? would this be a waste of time? what do the Shan State Army South think? We're not in Congress. We're not legislators. So the NCA signing group, the Burmese government, the Burmese Army political parties need to discuss it outside the National Assembly. On the basis of these discussions, Congress will approve a federal agreement. This is the role of NCA in shaping the peace, it is also a way to amend the 2008 Constitution. No progress has been made in the current negotiations. In his speech, the Commander-in-Chief said that the mission must be completed by 2010, I think there are two things to discuss. If the negotiations fail to make progress, the NCA could fail. We may not be able to take the NCA route again. Peace cannot be imposed. We may have to go back to battle. What is the question of the non-secession clause? what is the issue of non-secession?: in the process of shaping peace, everything has to be unified implemented in accordance with the NCA (National ceasefire Agreement). According to the NCA consensus, a democratic United federation must be established. "not divorced" is neither included in the NCA nor compatible with federalism. Confederacy is a principle that ensures that no one wants to secede from the Union. No need to write on paper. This is related to administration. If the administrative branch is unjust, then even if it is not allowed to secede, people will still do so. We came here as a nation from Shan State to talk, not to secede from the Union. If the discussion is not divorced from this topic, some people will question whether we have always wanted to leave. In fact, it can't be decided by someone. This will affect the draftin